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Sumber: How Populix Powers Good Decisions | Sidedoor Podcast
Populix is a market research company that helps Indonesian companies discover insights through surveys and testing through their mobile app. They’ve gamified a very manual process that required a lot of manual labor.
Populix CEO, Dr. Timothy Astandu chats with Slice CEO, Jesse Bouman, on the history of Populix, where the business is today and where it’s going.
Below is the full transcript of the conversation.
Jesse Bouman: Hi, Tim. Welcome to the podcast.
Timothy Astandu: Hi, Jesse. It's a pleasure to be here.
Jesse Bouman: Yeah. So you are the co-founder and CEO of Populix. Will you start out by just letting everybody know what Populix is?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, sure. So Populix is a startup in the market research phase. What we do are basically a consumer insights platform that help any businesses ask any questions that they want to ask.
So whether it's I want to open a new branch, or is my menu appealing to people, or even basic questions like, Who are my competitors and things of that nature. We help them ask those questions. And we have a pool of 300,000 respondents spread across Indonesia in all primary, secondary, tertiary cities.
And we connect the businesses with these respondents. So these respondents are authentic and they give their genuine answers to help these businesses make strategic decisions based on the opinions and insight they get from the respond.
Jesse Bouman: So I'm a marketer. So I have a lot more questions about this, but before we dive into Populix specifically maybe let's start and talk about your background and like how did you get to starting Populix?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, a lot of people ask me this question because I think it's not an industry or a startup that most people would start. It's actually quite niche and for me, I got into research like a long time ago. By faith, I think My life led to Populix. So my background was actually in academia. Prior to joining pops, I spent a lot of time in the UK and in Europe.
At first I was just studying there. Then I did a PhD, and then after I did my PhD Luck would have it that I met a professor who taught me a lot of things about research and then, it led to me becoming an academic while I was doing my PhD. I met Eileen. And Eileen is the COO.
Co-founder of Populix. So she was actually one of the students, and I was marking her essays, but in one of those nights in Cambridge, because there are, not so many Indonesians actually we were drinking in a basement pub and we were like, just talking nonsense. Oh, okay, what are you gonna do when you go back home to Indonesia?
And. Interestingly, she was actually interested in research because she worked in a consumer goods company. And if you've ever drink maybe I shouldn't say the brand, but if you go to Indonesia supermarkets and you go to the shelf, you'll find Eileen's drinks still there to this day. And so she understands research from like the client side, the demand side, right?
Whereas as an academic, I understood the research from the supply side, and so we connected and we're like, yeah, this is a good idea. There are so many amazing. Startups in the UK, in Europe, and in North America doing amazing. And they're focusing on market research. Maybe this is something we should implement back home since, Indonesia traditionally and to this day actually does very slow research.
Actually it's like dinosaur way of doing research. And then really connected like two, three years after that. And again, by faith, by serendipity, Eileen just quit her consumer goods job. I also was looking for her way back home and then, Yeah, we decided to build pops. We joined an accelerator program and then we realized, we actually needed a CTO to build our ideas.
And, we know nothing about technology. Again, would have it. We met Jonathan who was working in a similar startup in the us. Very successful and was looking for a way back home because he's getting married to an Indonesian and he's Indonesian too. So he became our CTO and that's pretty much the story of how. Jonah, Eileen , and Tim met and built Populix. And this was way back in 2018, I think.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. Wow, that's very cool. Starting out with academia. So you had mentioned that the way that Indonesian companies are doing it right now, or before you started was like very archaic, like dinosaurs.
So can you describe what that process or how they these companies were approaching?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, they think of research as something that you must do manually. And I think that's one of the big issues. If you imagine an interviewer trying to intercept shoppers at a supermarket, cashier, giving them 200 questions out of a list on pen and paper, that is how people traditionally view research in Indonesia.
I can give an example, and this is a real case example for modern, for clients. They're an automotive. They would actually hire people to stand in parking lots next to the cars. They're interested in. And they would wait until the driver comes back to the car and oh, I waited two hours for you.
Now I need to ask some questions. And obviously you can, this is an extreme example, but you can imagine the inefficiency and in the effectiveness of doing research this way. It is a very traditional way of collecting data. And I think, now with the advent of big data, the advent of apps, everyone is on their mobile phones.
There surely must be more efficient ways to collect data. And I think that's the tr the innovation we're trying to do at pops. So then
Jesse Bouman: can you explain to me your solution, right? Like how are you automating this? How you bring a technology in to this to make it a much faster process?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, so first and foremost, we're very focused on the mobile phone app because I think Indonesians are super sticky to their mobile phones.
You cannot even force people to do surveys on laptops. I know it worked in developed countries, but maybe not in developing countries. So our solution is to do all sorts of data collection. Whether it's simple surveys, whether it's product testing, whether it's diary entry studies, whether it's qualitative interviews, everything has to be able to be conducted via the mobile app.
And I think that's our main focus. We wanna be there in the phones of everyone who can give insights. And I think because of this, we are able to do research much faster than the traditional competitors. And the reasoning is simple, right? We already have the pool of respondents. It's like whenever we need to grill a fish instead of going to the lake or fishing them, we already have an aquarium and I can see which fishes I want to eat today.
So that's the analogy I like to give. And in terms of cost, it's much cheaper as well. Because if you have to go fishing whenever you need something, it's expense. But at the same time, if you already have everything in front of you the financial cost is much cheaper and finally it's much more accurate.
Also, we feel, because once we collect all the data via the mobile app, we actually control so much of the parameters. We know how many clicks, we know the average time it takes for someone to complete a survey and things like that. And we can really control it end to end even when the respondents register.
There are a lot of KYC or Customer since we ask. We need to know their information. We make sure that they're authentic. They don't have duplicate accounts at pops, and we actually have a credit scoring system for respondent authenticity. Even this is the extent we care about data quality.
So based on past answers, we can actually predict how honest a respondent, truly.
Jesse Bouman: Okay, so let me just so we, everyone understands you have a mobile app, right? And so you have over the years acquired a large pool of everyday people, right? And so let's just say, a hundred thousand people we, and then I am.
Coca-Cola, right? And I say we're launching Coca-Cola light. Light, right? . And we want to know is, is this the right branding or is this the right flavor? What, whatever the survey question is. So then they put out the parameters right on your app. And then you guys essentially will find the, the thousand people that they want to talk to.
Fill out the survey and then they get get the information that they want. Is that essentially like the process?
Timothy Astandu: Absolutely. I think that's absolutely spot on. And not only can they, blast it very quickly because we already have the pool of responds. The drink brand can actually choose who they wanna target.
Is it, young millennials? Do they live in urban areas? Do they have to like a particular genre of music? All these screenings we already have in our screening system on the respondent's side. And that allows us to really target an ideal audience for a particular.
Jesse Bouman: So then how are you acquiring these users?
And then what is the information that you're getting? Cause it sounds like you're asking them a lot of qualifying questions.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, so we do it organically actually, so by word of mouth. And people, dealt with our app. We blend ourselves as a lifestyle app. So there are actually a lot of fun activities you can put on the app.
It's not just surveys because I think the moment we fail to gamify the app, then people will leave the app in groups actually. So that's why we wanna make it fun. There's actually like a family field type game on. You can fill in personality quizzes, you can read articles you can win monthly prizes as well.
You can win a PS5, you can win a lunch date with a famous artist and things like that. So we gamified to make sure that people are interested because they do have to reveal a lot about themselves. In terms of the qualifying questions that you mentioned and the algorithm I mentioned earlier about this kind growing system is important to ask these qualifying questions because our algorithm will actually.
The honesty based on these qualifying questions. So let's say, your age 27, but you still go to high school and you own a Mercedes-Benz. This will trigger like red flags on our system, right? Because it doesn't make sense. You're 27 wires still in high school. If you're in high school, you don't have a license to drive a car.
And by answering or by asking rather all these questions beforehand, we can actually build the persona around a particular person and know how realistic that.
Jesse Bouman: Okay, so you've gamified the system, right? So it's very similar to what Buzzfeed does. Buzzfeed had all those quizzes, which essentially give them like targeting information for advertisers.
Was this part of the original product or did you build this, have like almost like the marketplace and then realize you needed to make the. Consumer side a little bit stickier, or like, how did you figure out that you needed to bring all those extra elements to it?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think the biggest thing we realized was [00:10:00] when we, when we realized that in Indonesia, people's mobile phones are very, rudimentary. So they don't have a lot of space and you have to compete with the likes of Facebook, WhatsApp, all these other apps. So if you don't. A very appealing app, they would simply uninstall your app.
And I think that was the biggest left for us. The moment we realized these people are uninstalling because they think, oh, we're just a survey app. The moment the survey runs out, I'm not gonna get anything out of this app anymore. I'm gonna delete it so I can download a different app. So this creates a challenge for us in which, how can we stay relevant inside someone's phone?
How can we be interesting for them so that they will actually open our app every day and think of us as an essential. And that sort of situation caused us to really focus on gamifying and making sure that, this is a very interesting app and you should be very sticky when using this app.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. So you were obviously you're trying to make it stickier, but you're making it fun and you're getting all [00:11:00] this data. And do they realize that they're giving you, volunteering this information or to them, or are they just having fun with. I think
Timothy Astandu: they and we're very transparent about this actually, the moment you download an app, we actually give a disclaimer saying that we are a data collection app.
And your opinions will be used for market research. And I think for us, we have to be able to do both, right? Make sure that there. Aware that their data is being used for market research, but at the same time they do so knowingly in a fun way with the app and the games and everything like that.
And I think that's also one of our differentiator towards the competition. People like to give insights when they know we're being transparent and people generally dislike if their data is being collect. This timely and basically, it's, the app is for a different thing, you, you're collecting also of different data, then people will complain.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. you said you, you acquire these customers organically, right? What is the carrot that you're using to acquire them? Is it that they can get paid to take a survey and then the games afterwards are what keep them around? Is that how you.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think there are explicit and implicit rewards.
Explicit rewards. We give definitely the monthly luck develop prizes and the rewards they give for doing a particular study or trying a new product. And the implicit rewards is the games and also the satisfaction of, influencing. The everyday products that they use. I think a lot of people out there, they wanna see them, their opinions be heard, right?
And if you can see, oh, today I voted for this movie poster. And then like next month when you see the movie come up and it's actually the poster you voted for, you feel happy because you actually influence that decision. So that's like the implicit messaging, oh, sorry, implicit.
Messaging that we try to communicate to the respondent as well. Not only are they getting, financial rewards, but they're actually making a difference.
Jesse Bouman: How much are they, I guess it, it's gonna range depending on the client, right? But how much would a typical survey or product test or whatever how much could they potentially make?
Like what's that range?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think it really depends on the project, like you mentioned, right? So let's say if you're trying a particular product and you need to review this product for a. That's gonna give you a lot of rewards because it's so time and effort consuming. So that might be like $200, but for very simple surveys, that takes a click, then that's 10 20 cents.
But I would say the average, let's say for a simple survey that's quite, the norm would be in the range of a few dollars per survey.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. So some of your campaigns can last for an extended period of time.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, so I think people try to consider us as like a useful side job in a way, rather than playing games and spending your money on buying game credits, right?
When you sit during your daily commute, you could actually make a few bucks and I, you're not gonna you're not gonna make a living out of new surveys. I think, everyone realizes that. But if you can get, an extra 50, $60 every few months I think people find it.
Jesse Bouman: Yeah, and I think, for some people they have to understand that that's a lot of money for Indonesians outside of Jakarta, right? You can, yeah. You can feed a small family for, that one or $2 that you're you're talking about, right? So for, if you're in Singapore or us, maybe it seems not worth it, but for a lot of Indonesians that is substantial income, especially if it's on the.
Definitely. So then, okay. What kind of companies are you working with then, right? That, you had talked about FMCG, I think you talked about automotive, you talked about like entertainment, but who are the top companies that are coming to you? How big are they? What is your sweet spot?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, interestingly, everyone in this space usually targets the really big companies, but for us it's a bit different. I think our mission, literally this is the public's mission and vision. We have a tagline that's written in all of the employee handbook saying that our mission and our vision is to create a world full of good decisions.
We've done our job. If all the businesses in the world rely on data to make good business decision. And this means that we need to expand our clients, not only from these super huge multinational companies, but even SMEs. When people have business ideas, they wanna open their small coffee shop, they need to rely on data to make these business decisions, not just, their instincts.
Ah, I think it's gonna be good here, I'll just open a shop here. So because of this, I think our client split is 50 50. 50%, the big companies, multinationals every brand you seen, the supermarket, banks, automotive insurance companies. You can imagine, the kind of companies.
And then the other half, the latter part is actually first time research buyers. So this would be your SMEs, your startups, people who basically just got funding and needed to know where the market is. We also get a lot of university students. We also get a lot of individual. Who are entrepreneurial and trying to figure out some business questions regarding their, side hustles.
So it's quite interesting because we can see that, up to half of pops and customers are actually first time research buyers. And of course, in terms of revenue it's a much different split, right? The big companies obviously chunk in a lot more revenue. But in terms of users, I think.
Sort of succeeded in our mission of opening research towards people who never thought they would be able to do research. And these people actually don't understand research at all. It's just because our app is very friendly and we help people who have very layman knowledge of research do sophisticated research using our app.
Jesse Bouman: So you said you, it's split 50/50 roughly, but The SMEs. So the SMEs, they're typically less sophisticated in many areas of business. And do you struggle communicating the value? Or how do you, like, how do they know that they need research for for their marketing, for their product?
Or like how, what is that like sales process, onboarding process.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think that's an excellent question. We also struggled like literally almost a year figuring that message out, but I think we, we found what the holy grail, the answer is actually, it's basically the bottom line. The, they don't understand this complicated research language.
They don't care about all data. What's the standard deviation, what's the level of significance? They don't understand that. But if you tell them, Hey, this impacts your bottom line by plus 12. If you change your messaging by X, Y, Z, you will expect blah, blah, blah. Increase in your top line, for example.
And they love that, I think. So SMEs, they understand numbers, right? They don't understand all the sophisticated research stuff, but if you can make an impact on their bottom line, you can make an impact on how much revenue they earn, giving them better margins of, or even you. A lot of SMEs now, they spend money on social media ads, right?
It's something that's big. You'll see a lot of people spending money on Instagram and TikTok ads. Why is that? Is because they, they feel it'll make an [00:18:00] impact on their business. It'll grow their business. So we give them something very similar. Also, we tell them one of our research tools that can help you is to maximize, who you spend it with and things like that.
Do you really need it right now? Who, which channels you should do? And, Things of that nature, I feel. So as long as you can help SMEs improve their bottom line and think of research as an investment rather than as cost, then they will be very open to it.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. Everybody loves money.
So I guess going back to the the consumer side, right? One thing as you were talking about, you're talking about the smaller businesses. This could just be me, right? But I get caught up in Jakarta, right? Everything evolves around Jakarta. But Indonesia is a very big country, fourth largest population many different islands, which have different, regional taste and cultures.
So how do you make sure that you have representation in all of these areas, including the much, smaller, I think you said, second and third tier cities.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think it's important to note a few things first, Jakarta is obviously the most important part of Indonesia, right?
I might be overgeneralizing here, up to half of consumption in the entire Indonesia is in Jakarta. And at the same time, if you look at the population and you think of people who actually have money and who have disposable income, it's probably only around 40, 50 million maximum out of our population of 200, 300 million people and where they live, they obviously live in Jakarta and Java.
In on one hand, I think it's very important to really focus on Jakarta, and that's why the actually is in Java. But then when you look at the prospects where the economy is gonna go, where do you see the fastest economy development and things like that, then you see all these outdoor s doing going at the ver rapid pace.
The easy way is to focus on half in Jakarta, but then you also have to focus on the other half outside Jakarta. And that's like our mindset when we think about the business. And that actually is reflected in our pool of respondents because at the end of the day, we only create this [00:20:00] pool if the businesses want to ask questions to these respondents, right?
So if you see our pool of respondents, most of them will be in Java and Jakarta. But at the same time, in every island we'll have like several. Smaller but very pools. So for example, in every major island there's a big city in Sulawesi its Makassar Bali is obviously big in Kalimantan. There's Balikpapan and in Sumatra there's Palembang and Medan.
So these are our focus areas there.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of power law. So I guess I kind of wanna shift gears a little. So you guys recently raised 7.7 million Series A around so congratulations on that. Thank you. Now that you have this fresh funding like what is what does the future look like?
What do you wanna invest in? What is growth, right? Are you introducing new products? What are you doing?
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I think especially with the tech winter coming and, nobody knows how long it's gonna last. I think we [00:21:00] wanna be able to use this money wisely. So we're not gonna spend everything, on crazy growth or something like that.
It's no longer girls at all cost. But I think there are two key sectors we really wanna emphasize and focus on. So first, as you mentioned, is this kind of Version of Populix that is targeted as SMEs. So our SAS model, and we call it pop. And so this pop light is designed for people who have very basic knowledge of research, but they wanna do research and they can get actionable insights immediately.
So that developing that product will take time and also we'll take a lot of money because, nowadays. Even engineers are being laid off, they're still expensive, . So we need to build our tech team first. And secondly, I think another key factor we wanna focus on is to go overseas, perhaps sometime soon, because I think, what we're really good at pops is basically collecting data via the mobile phone.
And as long as there are countries where people of or of the country are super sticky to their mobile phones, I think, that is a market we want to go to. So I can think [00:22:00] of neighboring countries such as the Philippines or Thailand or Vietnam being very interesting for our product market fit.
And so we might consider going there in the next few. I think those two are the major drivers for us and how we're going to use our money. Obviously we will also expand headcount and also marketing span and things like that. Those are also other components that we will use the money for.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. Yeah. Gotta be smart at this macro environment. So I wanted to ask, building off of you just raised around, your company is gonna be growing, right? Your background is in academia, right? And so you're a CEO now. And what is something that you have encountered or learned that you didn't even know that you needed to know before starting this company?
Timothy Astandu: I think the answer to that is that the startup world is the complete opposite of, what they teach you in business school. And this is so ironic. So not only did I used to be an academic, but I used to teach MBA classes actually. And I can tell you the way startups are run, it is basically 180 degrees the opposite of what people usually teach in business schools, right?
Like in business school, it's all about, having something that's set in stone, making sure you plan everything in advance. You have very clear strategy. It's all about profitability, with the positive and things of the nature. It's targeted at the corporate world in startups, you don't even have certainty of what's gonna happen tomorrow, right?
You live day by day so I. It's very challenging for me because I'm not used to that and I'm basically doing the exact opposite of what I've been preaching for a few years, , and I think that challenge, yeah, it was quite difficult. But then again, with tech Winter, I think the startup world has changed also.
So it's getting closer. It's converging toward what I would say, is conventional business sense. So nowadays, people in startup, they're also. Preaching about profitability. If you go back three, four years ago, no one in startup will say, oh, you have to be profitable in the first few years.
Everyone will be just, yeah, you have to grow, you have to expand, and things like that. Things might be coming full circle, although I don't think it will. But at the same time, yeah, it's just been really interesting because I can see like the pros and cons from both sides, from a very traditional business theory sense.
And the pros and cons from a very practical startup lift day by day kind of thing.
Jesse Bouman: Got it. Yeah, no teaching is way different than actually doing it. Yeah. . So then what is what has been one of your biggest challenges as CEO growing Populix to the point it is,
Timothy Astandu: I think the biggest challenges the biggest challenge is that there's always so many challenges on a daily basis.
Number one, firefighting. I think I don't know, in a startup world, like everything moves so fast that you have to basically fire, fight every day, and there's always going to be things happening in different. So having that ability to literally flick like a switch between thinking about business, then thinking about recruitment, thinking about the next town hall, thinking about the next investor meeting, I think that has been very challenging.
Secondly, I think I hinted this. Hinted at this in my previous answer, but about structure, right? Business as I understood it before, is very structured and things like that. But in, in startup you have to be flexible and you have to be able to do things on the fly. I think that's perhaps linked with firefighting but that's the second challenge.
And for me, lastly, I think is, There's always so many things you can do so many paths you can take as a startup, but you have to be focused, right? If you chase everything, then you'll fail at everything. But if you identify, let's say, like 10 areas of growth, but you focus on two or three and really have conviction that this is the way forward, and even if things fail, you just take it, and just go march forward.
That, that's not the challenge for me. On the, finding a startup.
Jesse Bouman: Yeah, absolutely. That resonates with me tremendously. , context switching, right? It's something that I deal with. I try to figure things out. Lot of, fires to deal with, like you said. Do you have a framework or how do you approach, like prioritizing what you need to work on and what you should be, offloading to a team member.
Timothy Astandu: Yeah, I do that usually the night before or like really early in the morning when I reply to emails. And it is like the first thing I do when a day starts I figure out like which ones I need to take myself and then which ones I could delegate. I think as like a rule of thumb, if I think that this issue.
Is going to be big or has a problem to be big, then I will take care of it straight away. But if this issue is something that, is more like an operational task, then I will delegate it to someone. And then I also as a something I do is usually I spare two, three hours in the afternoon empty.
So I had never booked like, Of, during these this particular thoughts because something will happen during the day that will require me to actually fix that during those empty thoughts. So I think, those are my main tactics in firefighting and figuring out which task I should do myself or I should delegate.
Jesse Bouman: Yeah, I don't have those empty slots, but that sounds like a good plan. , so you, One year from now. Someone asked me this question, I thought it was really interesting. One year from now, you've got all these things that you're working on building. If you and I were to meet for drinks and we are gonna toast right to a milestone for pops, what is that thing that you wanna toast about?
Timothy Astandu: Okay. I think maybe not one year from now, one or two years it's probably series b I think, as a startup it's always good to think about the growth of a company in terms of your fundraising. Because at the end of the day, whenever you race around, it means you manage to convince investors that you're doing a good job.
You're growing I think, and it's like a report card in school, right? When you do this funding round. So I hope that we'll be able to at least, given the environment, maybe not complete our series [00:28:00] run, but at least be in a position where our growth is doing really well and we are actually ready to be a Series B company.
I, I hope we can talk about that sometimes. I hope
Jesse Bouman: I can toast that. We're a Series A company at that time with you.
Timothy Astandu: We should do it at the same time so we can have the drinks and we'll have something to toast to each other. You
Jesse Bouman: don't need to give me an occasion to drink, so just call me
I'll get you outta here on this one. Last question, right? You've been doing this, I'm just starting out. What's one piece of advice you would have for someone who is starting out their first startup.
Timothy Astandu: Oh, that's tough. There's like literally a thousand things I could say on this because it's such a, okay.
I think cuz there are so many things I could say then I guess my main piece of advice would be, it's something that you have to persevere. I think startups are not, For people who are fainthearted, I think there's going to be challenges every day and you can only succeed if really just march on with all the problems that are going on.
Like literally the house could be on fire and you just have to stay positive and smile. It's I dunno whether you said there's a meme with a house. On fire and there's like a dog in front and the dog is just smiling. I think when you are on the startup, that's especially in day one, that's like day one mentality, right?
Fighting fire every day and, oh no, how am I going to overcome this? And then tomorrow, something bigger happens. Oh no. How do I overcome this? I think, that ability to have that mindset and to overcome the challenges in early on and being very persevere. Yeah. I think that would be the best advice I could.
Jesse Bouman: That is my favorite gif, and I send that to many people. Tim, thank you so much for the time. It was a pleasure having you on the pod.
Timothy Astandu: Thank you so much, Jesse. It's a pleasure and hopefully we'll be able to have that drink sometime soon.
Jesse Bouman: Absolutely. Take care.
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